>> wottle said:

I had seen that. From what I've heard, it may be due to the attempted use of the CD-audio out connector (which the Q700 doesn't have input for, so maybe they wired it to the audio in jack? Maybe later today I'll try throwing it into the Q700 to do a test fit. Also, it could be dependent on whether you have the DOS card's RAM slot populated, as it sticks upward at an angle. As you can see with my Reply card, the RAM extends past the top of the board. Click to expand...

OK, I tested it out. Not sure how anyone got a Houdini II card to fit with the lid closed. I suspect they removed the card guides on the underside of the lid, as on mine, the little slot that I believe was there to help stabilize longer boards hits the board and the lid will not come close to closing. With no audio cable and no SIMM in the RAM socket, I think it would work otherwise. I'm not willing to cut up my 700 case for the novelty of it.

Probably for the best, I don't need this many DOS compatible machines...

>> phipli said:

The 650 is the best 68k Mac in my opinion. Stable 40MHz overclocks are trivial by adding one or two SMD resistors and two jumper headers. Its really easy to do. Best thing is you can switch between 33 and 40MHz by just adding or removing the jumpers from headers, without even needing to remove the mezzanine or anything. Click to expand...

If it doesn't boot System 6, it's just an underperforming G3 or G4.

Another update on my progress. I've still got some case cleaning to do on the 6100s, but I've gone down a detour as I really want these to be usable for their future owners and I did not get any HDI-45 adapters for getting video out to a modern monitor. This has lead me to try my hand at PCB design to build something that will plug into the HDI-45 port and output either the Mac's DA-15 connector (for purists or those who have a Mac monitor they want to use with it, or those who want it to work with the DOS Compatible card's Y cable), or a HD-15 VGA connector for hooking up to a modern monitor. Making good progress - I've got a PCB that replicates the HDI-45 male connector's pins. And have PCB designs that I think will work and provide adequate clearance on the 6100. The VGA adapter will also work on the 7100. Not sure on the 8100, but it may be possible with longer pins in the HDI-45 connection.

I did get around to testing out the monitors. A surprising number of them powered on and at least somewhat worked. I forgot, but there was actually one Apple AudioVision 14, which uses the short lived HDI-45 connector. It was in ROUGH shape, and the connector was pretty rusty, but I tested it out and it was working pretty well. Needs some geometry adjustments and pincushioning, but it does work:

[Image: IMG_7238.jpeg]


Side note, when you have strewn CRTs all over your workshop floor, and you're moving them around, be careful where you place your hand if you fall over... Could have been much worse, but the top of this AppleVision 1710 is no more. Fortunately the case was already partially broken (cracked on the trip in the haul) and the monitor was one of the ones that showed no signs of of life (it was on the floor and the previous owner said they had had a flood - you could see the water level on some of the monitors). Still, not what I was wanting to do, but fortunately I didn't get cut on any of the sharp plastics (I did stab myself under the fingernail with a shard of plastic while trying to remove the broken base of a Dell Trinitron monitor). Stay safe out there! :)

[Image: IMG_7239.jpeg]

Three of the four Macintosh 16 inch displays work. One is very dim, but functional. Hoping I can clean one up and use it with the Quadra 650. And find a good home for the other two. Unfortunately, The monitor I was really hoping to get working would power on, but shows no video or other signs of life is the SuperMac SuperMatch17. The two PC monitors with trinitrons I kept both work and have fantastic pictures. I probably won't keep them, but after seeing them, I might reconsider. The Dell had a shattered base that I ended up giving myself a nice deep stab under my fingernail trying to get it off. Probably should have been wearing gloves given the sharp plastics and filth...

Finally, I decided to inspect and test some of the Centris / Quadra 610s. I think they must have either been stored lower and succumbed to the flood, or they are just more sensitive to the humidity they were stored in. Where I believe I had around 10 of the 13 6100s functional, I would guess only 3 of the 610s seem like they will be able to get working. Several were battery bombed and it took out half the board, or rust, or the one I pictured in my original post that had a layer of mud covering the board. I opened up one and there was a vine that had made its way inside and had set up shop in the case.

[Image: IMG_7402.jpeg] [Image: IMG_7403.jpeg]

I was hoping to salvage more, but we'll see when I dig in more to test power supplies and other components. One had a tray loaded internal CD-ROM I'm hoping will be salvageable. Hopefully I can wrap up my work on the 6100s, get video out solutions for them, and then move on to the Centris / Quadra 6x0.

>> wottle said:

Finally, I decided to inspect and test some of the Centris / Quadra 610s. I think they must have either been stored lower and succumbed to the flood, or they are just more sensitive to the humidity they were stored in. Where I believe I had around 10 of the 13 6100s functional, I would guess only 3 of the 610s seem like they will be able to get working. Several were battery bombed and it took out half the board, or rust, or the one I pictured in my original post that had a layer of mud covering the board. I opened up one and there was a vine that had made its way inside and had set up shop in the case. Click to expand...

I totally didn't realize there were some LC/Performa 475s in this collection of machines, that is a shame to see. I wonder if it's worth trying to salvage some of the more proprietary chips from these boards.

>> Nycturne said:

I wonder if it's worth trying to salvage some of the more proprietary chips from these boards. Click to expand...

I second that -- if any of the boards are a lost cause, please save any of the custom chips you can. I'm sure they would be useful for somebody. I accidentally fried the flash /WE pin on my LC 475's MEMCjr (343S0164-a) chip by putting 12V on it (oops).

>> Nycturne said:

I totally didn't realize there were some LC/Performa 475s in this collection of machines, that is a shame to see. I wonder if it's worth trying to salvage some of the more proprietary chips from these boards. Click to expand...

Yeah, I did go through the pizza boxes as well. They faired as poorly as the Centris/Quadra 6x0s

I definitely plan to do what I can to salvage components. If anyone has a good source for the proprietary / no longer available chips so I can do my best to salvage anything worth taking a chance on. I was at least hoping on some of the bad boards I could at a minimum pull the socketed CPUs, but on the few I tried the pins had rotted out. Are those worth keeping? Or of the pins fall off, is it a wasted cause because the corrosion probably made its way into the CPU?

>> wottle said:

Yeah, I did go through the pizza boxes as well. They faired as poorly as the Centris/Quadra 6x0s I definitely plan to do what I can to salvage components. If anyone has a good source for the proprietary / no longer available chips so I can do my best to salvage anything worth taking a chance on. I was at least hoping on some of the bad boards I could at a minimum pull the socketed CPUs, but on the few I tried the pins had rotted out. Are those worth keeping? Or of the pins fall off, is it a wasted cause because the corrosion probably made its way into the CPU? Click to expand...

I don't know much about the 610s, but I can mark some of the more interesting parts on the LC475/Q605 boards:

Custom Apple Parts:

- ADC/DAC - Custom Apple sound chip.
- ADB Controller - Self explanatory.
- Antelope + Clock Gen for Video - Video output subsystem. Clock generator for this may not be proprietary.
- Primetime - I/O and expansion controller.
- MEMC Jr - DRAM controller.
- ROM - Maybe the least interesting Apple component here, but still proprietary. If you can solder the ROM chips to repair a board, you can solder the ROM SIMM socket and use an aftermarket ROM SIMM.

Other Interesting Parts:

- Clock Generator - Motorola made these to go with the 68k CPUs, but some of these boards came with the 88920 and others came with the 88916. The 88916 is desirable for those looking to overclock their 475/Q605.
- SCSI/Serial Controllers - Not custom to Apple, but still probably hard to come by these days.
- Serial Port Chips - 26LS30, you can still get these, but I'm not sure if you can get them in this package.

As for the CPU, I'm not sure the 25Mhz LC variant is super-interesting. As folks like me buy scavenged 33/40Mhz 68040 parts with the FPU, the original 68LC040 CPUs become spares. So I'm not sure fixing the pins is worth it unless someone is desperate. I'd be worried about the pins breaking again and getting stuck in the socket.

EDIT: On the off chance that the VRAM is still any good on these, any 512KB sticks that work would help add to the supply and be desirable for anyone who wants their system to look a bit more stock than the aftermarket sticks available today.

>> Nycturne said:

I don't know much about the 610s, but I can mark some of the more interesting parts on the LC475/Q605 boards: Custom Apple Parts: - ADC/DAC - Custom Apple sound chip. - ADB Controller - Self explanatory. - Antelope + Clock Gen for Video - Video output subsystem. Clock generator for this may not be proprietary. - Primetime - I/O and expansion controller. - MEMC Jr - DRAM controller. - ROM - Maybe the least interesting Apple component here, but still proprietary. If you can solder the ROM chips to repair a board, you can solder the ROM SIMM socket and use an aftermarket ROM SIMM. Other Interesting Parts: - Clock Generator - Motorola made these to go with the 68k CPUs, but some of these boards came with the 88920 and others came with the 88916. The 88916 is desirable for those looking to overclock their 475/Q605. - SCSI/Serial Controllers - Not custom to Apple, but still probably hard to come by these days. - Serial Port Chips - 26LS30, you can still get these, but I'm not sure if you can get them in this package. As for the CPU, I'm not sure the 25Mhz LC variant is super-interesting. As folks like me buy scavenged 33/40Mhz 68040 parts with the FPU, the original 68LC040 CPUs become spares. So I'm not sure fixing the pins is worth it unless someone is desperate. I'd be worried about the pins breaking again and getting stuck in the socket. EDIT: On the off chance that the VRAM is still any good on these, any 512KB sticks that work would help add to the supply and be desirable for anyone who wants their system to look a bit more stock than the aftermarket sticks available today. Click to expand...

That's awesome information. I'll be looking at the board to see what I can manage to rescue. I'll do some digging on the 610 and see what there would make sense to pull from the board. It does make sense that the non-FPU, 35MHz CPUs probably aren't really sought after. I have a 68LC040 in my Mystic CC that I'd love to swap for a full 040 with FPU.

Another update on the restoration. I received my BlueSCSI v2 boards from JLCPCB and they look great, with one problem. Apparently I did something wrong when I tried to use a mix of my parts and their parts (the LEDs and the JST connector were out of stock, so I ordered some. I must have missed something because the LEDs were installed, but the JST connector was not.

[Image: IMG_8065.jpeg] [Image: IMG_8164.jpeg]


Not the end of the world, because those will primarily be used for the upcoming WiFi management feature. I will likely order these connectors and add them to some of the devices that I may want to have the management functionality. But I got 30 boards, but only assembled 10 because I was trying to keep my costs down with the Pi Pico 2Ws. I'll likely offer them at cost for people that want them with the 6100s. My cost was about $25 per assembled board with the Pi Pico, and SCSI connector, and 8GB microSD. Now I'm going to try to create a couple of fully loaded images for these with 7.6.1, 8.1, and DOS images for Windows 3.1 and 95.

Remember, @Bolle has made the Reloaded boards for the 475, so there's hope for those custom chips.

>> Kai Robinson said:

Remember, @max1zzz has made the Reloaded boards for the 475, so there's hope for those custom chips. Click to expand...

I didn't know they had made boards for the 475, and I can't find it, just their other LC boards. But I do see one made by @Bolle: https://github.com/TheRealBolle/LC475

Still nice though, if a bit time-consuming to recover a couple more machines out of this lot.

>> Nycturne said:

I didn't know they had made boards for the 475, and I can't find it, just their other LC boards. But I do see one made by @Bolle : https://github.com/TheRealBolle/LC475 Still nice though, if a bit time-consuming to recover a couple more machines out of this lot. Click to expand...

Correct, it was indeed @Bolle - i must have misattributed it - i know Max did the LC/LCII & LCIII, so it probably got stuck in my head.

>> Nycturne said:

I don't know much about the 610s, but I can mark some of the more interesting parts on the LC475/Q605 boards: Custom Apple Parts: - ADC/DAC - Custom Apple sound chip. - ADB Controller - Self explanatory. - Antelope + Clock Gen for Video - Video output subsystem. Clock generator for this may not be proprietary. - Primetime - I/O and expansion controller. - MEMC Jr - DRAM controller. - ROM - Maybe the least interesting Apple component here, but still proprietary. If you can solder the ROM chips to repair a board, you can solder the ROM SIMM socket and use an aftermarket ROM SIMM. Other Interesting Parts: - Clock Generator - Motorola made these to go with the 68k CPUs, but some of these boards came with the 88920 and others came with the 88916. The 88916 is desirable for those looking to overclock their 475/Q605. - SCSI/Serial Controllers - Not custom to Apple, but still probably hard to come by these days. - Serial Port Chips - 26LS30, you can still get these, but I'm not sure if you can get them in this package. As for the CPU, I'm not sure the 25Mhz LC variant is super-interesting. As folks like me buy scavenged 33/40Mhz 68040 parts with the FPU, the original 68LC040 CPUs become spares. So I'm not sure fixing the pins is worth it unless someone is desperate. I'd be worried about the pins breaking again and getting stuck in the socket. EDIT: On the off chance that the VRAM is still any good on these, any 512KB sticks that work would help add to the supply and be desirable for anyone who wants their system to look a bit more stock than the aftermarket sticks available today. Click to expand...

I've made a couple of tweaks to your drawing, sorry they're not in the same font (and one is a little small!). I hope you don't mind! :



I added the main clock because I think it is worth grabbing (I've called it the reference clock, because all other clocks are created from it, but a reference clock is usually a special accurate one, so I don't think it is the right wording). They're a weird speed, used in a lot of macs, sometimes fail and hard to find new.

Next, I renamed what you'd called the "Video Clock" - that component takes the 31.3344MHz clock and generates two different programmable clock speeds, one for the video signal, and the other is half the bus speed. The second one is then routed over to the next item...

... the MC88916 / 88920, which buffers the clock and sends it to many components on the board. One of the outputs is doubled in frequency and I think one is halved.

I also tweaked the description of the two MC26LS30 chips and "ADB Cont." . Doesn't really matter though. For clarity, the two serial chips are line drivers, and the Cuda chip does do ADB, but also does some stuff to do with soft power (on machines that have it), PRAM and the RTC is in that chip. It is actually a little low power 68HC05 microcontroller with the functionality that used to be done by whole ICs and even circuits implemented in software.

I wouldn't be too worried about recovering the PLL Clock Driver, you can get higher rated parts that make for better overclocking cheaply online, either from eBay or Aliexpress. Generally go for the MC88916DW80 as it is rated for a 40MHz bus speed as apple uses them (and usually allows overclocks to 50 and beyond). The 88916 and 88920 are pin compatible and interchangeable. Generally 25MHz machines are fitted with the 88920, while 33MHz machines are fitted with a 88916DW70 (the 35MHz rated part). There is also an 88916DW50, that Apple fitted to some Centris 650s... and sometimes over-spec'd parts were fitted, I assume because they were on hand and the "correct" parts weren't.

Hope that is interesting :)

>> wottle said:

Another update on the restoration. I received my BlueSCSI v2 boards from JLCPCB and they look great, with one problem. Apparently I did something wrong when I tried to use a mix of my parts and their parts (the LEDs and the JST connector were out of stock, so I ordered some. I must have missed something because the LEDs were installed, but the JST connector was not. View attachment 19678 View attachment 19677 Not the end of the world, because those will primarily be used for the upcoming WiFi management feature. I will likely order these connectors and add them to some of the devices that I may want to have the management functionality. But I got 30 boards, but only assembled 10 because I was trying to keep my costs down with the Pi Pico 2Ws. I'll likely offer them at cost for people that want them with the 6100s. My cost was about $25 per assembled board with the Pi Pico, and SCSI connector, and 8GB microSD. Now I'm going to try to create a couple of fully loaded images for these with 7.6.1, 8.1, and DOS images for Windows 3.1 and 95. Click to expand...

Green BlueSCSI's??!? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

>> eric said:

Green BlueSCSI's??!? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Click to expand...

I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! Between the missing JST connectors and the green PCBs, I feel like I must have submitted the wrong order. I might have to design a full enclosure case for the internals and print it in blue filament! A thousand apoloigies! Unfortunately, I have 30 of them :cry:

>> phipli said:

I've made a couple of tweaks to your drawing, sorry they're not in the same font (and one is a little small!). I hope you don't mind! : I added the main clock because I think it is worth grabbing (I've called it the reference clock, because all other clocks are created from it, but a reference clock is usually a special accurate one, so I don't think it is the right wording). They're a weird speed, used in a lot of macs, sometimes fail and hard to find new. Next, I renamed what you'd called the "Video Clock" - that component takes the 31.3344MHz clock and generates two different programmable clock speeds, one for the video signal, and the other is half the bus speed. The second one is then routed over to the next item... ... the MC88916 / 88920, which buffers the clock and sends it to many components on the board. One of the outputs is doubled in frequency and I think one is halved. Click to expand...

To be fair, I haven't traced all the clock signals through the schematic yet, so the additional details are interesting.

As for the PLL Clock Driver, yes that agrees with my reading. The doubled frequency is for the CPU's PCLK, and the bus timings for the CPU are being fed from Q1, with peripherals generally fed off Q0. The halved clock is only fed to the SCSI chip's clock input when you move the R96 jumper to the R95 spot, since it goes out of spec if you bring the bus clock up above 25Mhz. And yes, I've hit data corruption issues when I tried to run the SCSI chip off the bus clock when overclocking the system.

>> phipli said:

I also tweaked the description of the two MC26LS30 chips and "ADB Cont." . Doesn't really matter though. For clarity, the two serial chips are line drivers, and the Cuda chip does do ADB, but also does some stuff to do with soft power (on machines that have it), PRAM and the RTC is in that chip. It is actually a little low power 68HC05 microcontroller with the functionality that used to be done by whole ICs and even circuits implemented in software. Click to expand...

Yeah, I realized that the chips were line drivers after I marked up the photo. There's also a pair of LS32s for the receive lines, although they might not be on the top side of the logic board. Still need to see if there's a compatible modern replacement.

As for the ADB, since soft power is part of the bus (albeit in parallel to the serial data line), I didn't call it out explicitly. Interesting that CUDA is the RTC/PRAM component as well, but I can see that now with U28 managing the power supplied to the CUDA, letting it switch to battery when power is shut off. Neat.

>> phipli said:

I wouldn't be too worried about recovering the PLL Clock Driver, you can get higher rated parts that make for better overclocking cheaply online, either from eBay or Aliexpress. Generally go for the MC88916DW80 as it is rated for a 40MHz bus speed as apple uses them (and usually allows overclocks to 50 and beyond). The 88916 and 88920 are pin compatible and interchangeable. Generally 25MHz machines are fitted with the 88920, while 33MHz machines are fitted with a 88916DW70 (the 35MHz rated part). There is also an 88916DW50, that Apple fitted to some Centris 650s... and sometimes over-spec'd parts were fitted, I assume because they were on hand and the "correct" parts weren't. Hope that is interesting Click to expand...

It's probably more of a question what the goal is. As I said, if any of these have over-spec'd PLL clock drivers, they are more interesting, as there is no modern equivalent in production as far as I know, and as we both point out, there are folks doing upgrades, not just repairs with them.

That said, if the goal is to try to repair and have as many working systems as possible, salvaging "free" 88920s is nothing to sneeze at IMO. Especially when it's common that these can handle 33Mhz, if not a little more than that.

>> Nycturne said:

The halved clock is only fed to the SCSI chip's clock input when you move the R96 jumper to the R95 spot, since it goes out of spec if you bring the bus clock up above 25Mhz. Click to expand...

Yeah it was me that first raised it as a solution on 68kmla (I never saw it anywhere before, but I mean, apple engineers knew and someone else might have spotted it if they were familiar with the 88916 and beeped around the chip). My machines were always stable at 33MHz so I hadn't needed to make the change, but other people were having issues so I suggested making the swap to change the SCSI clock. I later made the change myself when I started pushing to 40 and 50MHz and beyond. Around that time I'd spent a load of time mapping out the Q610 timing settings and clock circuit, the LC475 is similar, but doesn't have independent footprints for a separate clock for ethernet and SCSI like the 610 does (the second clock isn't fitted on some machine configs).

>> Nycturne said:

since soft power is part of the bus (albeit in parallel to the serial data line) Click to expand...

Not entirely, soft power (on machines that have it) isn't just part of ADB. It actually goes to the Nubus, can be controlled from software and on some machines even goes to the IR port control board (which has another of the same type of MCU).

>> Nycturne said:

as there is no modern equivalent in production as far as I know, Click to expand...

No modern equivalent, but thousands of NOS and recovered parts available cheap. If I was doing a repair or a reloaded board, I'd always stick the DW80 on it for the couple of dollars it costs as they're completely compatible and give the possibility of pushing beyond 40MHz. The stock part actually seems to be the first hard limit on overclocking, without replacing it people seem to get between 38 and 42MHz. Some of us are getting up to about 53MHz with the DW80.

>> Nycturne said:

That said, if the goal is to try to repair and have as many working systems as possible, salvaging "free" 88920s is nothing to sneeze at IMO. Especially when it's common that these can handle 33Mhz, if not a little more than that. Click to expand...

My poor Performa 475 was a rescue :). This was my video circuit! If I remember, the main issue on this one was the 31.3344MHz clock was dead, and there was some issues in the sound circuit, plus the usual recap. On, and a resistor had got hot and broken, I assume it developed a short.

>> phipli said:

Yeah it was me that first raised it as a solution on 68kmla (I never saw it anywhere before, but I mean, apple engineers knew and someone else might have spotted it if they were familiar with the 88916 and beeped around the chip). My machines were always stable at 33MHz so I hadn't needed to make the change, but other people were having issues so I suggested making the swap to change the SCSI clock. I later made the change myself when I started pushing to 40 and 50MHz and beyond. Around that time I'd spent a load of time mapping out the Q610 timing settings and clock circuit, the LC475 is similar, but doesn't have independent footprints for a separate clock for ethernet and SCSI like the 610 does (the second clock isn't fitted on some machine configs). Not entirely, soft power (on machines that have it) isn't just part of ADB. It actually goes to the Nubus, can be controlled from software and on some machines even goes to the IR port control board (which has another of the same type of MCU). No modern equivalent, but thousands of NOS and recovered parts available cheap. If I was doing a repair or a reloaded board, I'd always stick the DW80 on it for the couple of dollars it costs as they're completely compatible and give the possibility of pushing beyond 40MHz. The stock part actually seems to be the first hard limit on overclocking, without replacing it people seem to get between 38 and 42MHz. Some of us are getting up to about 53MHz with the DW80. My poor Performa 475 was a rescue . This was my video circuit! If I remember, the main issue on this one was the 31.3344MHz clock was dead, and there was some issues in the sound circuit, plus the usual recap. On, and a resistor had got hot and broken, I assume it developed a short. View attachment 19729 Click to expand...

Looks rather crispy there... o_O

>> Volvo242GT said:

Looks rather crispy there... Click to expand...

It got better :)



I replaced the port and cleaned the area up. Reflowed what needed it.

@phipli Nice.