Poll - Extending the term length of the board

>> Androda said:

I am wondering to some degree what kind of things people are expecting the Board to be doing. Tinker Different is a forum. Unless there are community needs, governing decisions to be made, problems to be addressed, or similar concerns, what is there for the Board to do? We're not trying to change the world, we want to provide stability and a good atmosphere for the users. This year the Board has more prominently given people notice that there's a way to donate to fund TD operations (ko-fi), we ran the calendar contest, invited some additional moderators to help spread the load, and set up a merch store. That seems pretty reasonable to me, despite all the scheduling and coordination issues we've encountered. The things we have struggled with most are as Kai mentioned, understanding the roles and even in my opinion the purpose of the Board itself. I still don't fully comprehend why a complicated political system was chosen for the operations of something as basic and even mundane as a forum. Certainly we wanted to avoid the abuses which occurred on what many people call "the other forum", but that abuse must be avoidable in ways that are simpler than this. I also must point out that the Board-based system has its own dangers. Consider a situation where people are voted in and decide they want to take the forum a totally different direction than the membership wants. What happens then? Who holds the Board accountable? Who can say no and actually stop them? What happens then could be the death of the forum. We need protections against this sort of thing. So overall I would say that day to day operations of the forum have been as expected - mundane, standard tasks. But trying to think through policies that try to prevent what I see as inherent dangers in the system is not easy or straightforward. Click to expand...

I had chosen to keep out of discussions over a year ago, but I want to weigh in here because it seems the initial vision has been lost.

TD was to be established as a more broad and extensive community, beyond "just" a forum. That is what the initial board took away from the forming in late 2021, but that was not the overall end goal.

TD was to become a platform that branched off FROM the forum. That was the reason a board was established and needed.

>> Mr. Fahrenheit said:

I had chosen to keep out of discussions over a year ago, but I want to weigh in here because it seems the initial vision has been lost. TD was to be established as a more broad and extensive community, beyond "just" a forum. That is what the initial board took away from the forming in late 2021, but that was not the overall end goal. TD was to become a platform that branched off FROM the forum. That was the reason a board was established and needed. Click to expand...

Right, I tend to think of TD more as a ideology brand than a particular platform of communication.

At the end of the day an idea/ideology needs a platform of communication to be run.

As someone who's been here from the beginning - the goals (ideology?) were - a friendly, well moderated online community (forum/discord). Backups. Community funded/supported. A system (board) which would allow the community group to set the direction. From my view that's what's happening and hasn't been lost.

>> Androda said:

It never is easy and the concern you posted is one of any elected body IMO. I agree that the focus of what the board should ultimately work on are the terms. Any concerns can be aired on the feedback forum, discussed by the board and consensus resolution placed into posted secretary notes. Nobody gets everything they want with a system like this and that is ok. I think that is to be expected.

As far as roles, those evolve somewhat over time. so what you perceive them to be now will probably be different in 3 or 4 years and that is also ok. I dont think anyone is expecting you or the others to come up with all the answers here now on this thread LOL :D It takes time to do this which subsequently speaks to the value of longer terms and the foresight that provides.

>> Certificate of Excellence said:

I dont think anyone is expecting you or the others to come up with all the answers here now on this thread LOL Click to expand...

Agree, but appreciate all the discussion - taking notes and throwing them in a doc for the next meeting.

>> eric said:

At the end of the day an idea/ideology needs a platform of communication to be run. As someone who's been here from the beginning - the goals (ideology?) were - a friendly, well moderated online community (forum/discord). Backups. Community funded/supported. A system (board) which would allow the community group to set the direction. From my view that's what's happening and hasn't been lost. Click to expand...

Yes, it has.

I had shared a lot of ideas for how this would all grow outwards, and those ideas have all been lost. Again, much more than a "forum". A website, a technical resource, a "store", and much, much more. None of those ideas or vision made it into the TD forum, and have been lost. Much like my original thoughts in fall of 2021, a broader vision was lost when the board formed. Every single person who became a board member moved into the direction of "just a forum". That wasn't the vision I had when I started this conversation in July 2021, before you, @eric came on.

What do we have now? Just a forum. Everything else that I had envisioned that would benefit the entire community was lost due to people not taking that away, and then refusing to allow me to be a part of the discussions "behind the scenes", to continue that vision, that legacy. That is what was lost.

When fogWraith set up the test forum platform (the gathering) where we were posting our thoughts on everything, I had laid all of this out. I made postings of different aspects of what I envisioned being the "community", not just a forum. Sadly, when this current forum software that TD uses was deployed, all of those posts were lost. But I had made them. I tried to bring these topics up in the Discord conversation we had going, and my input was largely ignored.

This was one reason I wanted a seat at the table, to be able to convey these thoughts and ideas on-going, to help grow the community. The 2021 board decided that there was no need for that position, and so I took those ideas, and I left. After that time, I also removed those ideas from the Discord server we shared, because they were now my ideas again. The TD board certainly didn't want to know my original vision once they were official.

If TD was supposed to be "just a forum", why in to world would it have needed a board of directors of 7?

>> eric said:

At the end of the day an idea/ideology needs a platform of communication to be run. As someone who's been here from the beginning - the goals (ideology?) were - a friendly, well moderated online community (forum/discord). Backups. Community funded/supported. A system (board) which would allow the community group to set the direction. From my view that's what's happening and hasn't been lost. Click to expand...

This makes great sense to me. Certainly we need key platforms to communicate, document, archive etc. I did not adequately define ideology - effectively the ideals that generally define the culture and community of Tinker Different (which we collectively define). To me, when I think about TD, I think friendly, helpful, documented/archived, community, general tinker-er mentality.

Im sure we all would define this a little bit differently but also speaks to the value of a board where these variants can be expressed and evolution and coalescence of ideals can take place.

>> Mr. Fahrenheit said:

Yes, it has. I had shared a lot of ideas for how this would all grow outwards, and those ideas have all been lost. Again, much more than a "forum". A website, a technical resource, a "store", and much, much more. None of those ideas or vision made it into the TD forum, and have been lost. Much like my original thoughts in fall of 2021, a broader vision was lost when the board formed. Every single person who became a board member moved into the direction of "just a forum". That wasn't the vision I had when I started this conversation in July 2021, before you, @eric came on. What do we have now? Just a forum. Everything else that I had envisioned that would benefit the entire community was lost due to people not taking that away, and then refusing to allow me to be a part of the discussions "behind the scenes", to continue that vision, that legacy. That is what was lost. When fogWraith set up the test forum platform (the gathering) where we were posting our thoughts on everything, I had laid all of this out. I made postings of different aspects of what I envisioned being the "community", not just a forum. Sadly, when this current forum software that TD uses was deployed, all of those posts were lost. But I had made them. I tried to bring these topics up in the Discord conversation we had going, and my input was largely ignored. This was one reason I wanted a seat at the table, to be able to convey these thoughts and ideas on-going, to help grow the community. The 2021 board decided that there was no need for that position, and so I took those ideas, and I left. After that time, I also removed those ideas from the Discord server we shared, because they were now my ideas again. The TD board certainly didn't want to know my original vision once they were official. If TD was supposed to be "just a forum", why in to world would it have needed a board of directors of 7? Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail on the head here - your vision has been lost - not the vision. And that is 100% OK!

You indeed did put forward many ideas and I read them all even though I joined a month or so later.

Running a store. Who's going to put up the capital to stock it? Who's fulfilling orders? Who's dealing with returns and customer questions? Who's collecting and paying taxes? I do think a community store selling PCB's would be cool and a great service to the community, but it is easier said than done. Even the current merch store was quite a bit of effort to setup.

Running a Tech resource wiki/website - we have looked at this many times and no solutions really fit what we're looking for. I have some ideas of an implementation and can propose them when I have time via the feedback forum.

Ideas need to be implemented. It's great to have grand ideas, but if they don't inspire people to put in the effort, or you don't put in the effort to make the tangible things happen, then they don't happen.

If you have concrete ideas and would like to do them, or inspire others to do them, or ask the board to do them - propose them in the feedback forum.

To begin, thanks to one and all for the discussion to date. Before reading my comments below, please note I am not upset. If anything, I am now even more enthusiastic. We need this kind of discussion to stimulate the best ideas for the good of this forum. It's OKAY to disagree, so don't hold back if you have good ideas. Just be ready to defend them, as I shall now do below. Because the best ideas will likely be used by the board to make better decisions going forward. The worse one can do in this discussion is not participate and turn a blind eye to it.

>> eric said:

This Discord discussion is definitely off topic - and illustrates that it really doesn't matter if it's discord or forum or whatever, off topic chat happens anywhere Click to expand...

Naturally, took note of the pop-shot my way. (No, I am not upset,.) But as I wrote before, I disagree with such "off topic" assertions. The entire discussion about 1 year or 3 year terms has to do with the BOARD, which has to do with the way this site is MANAGED and HELD TOGETHER. Long term viability is at stake. I view the topic of "Discord" (for better and for worse) as very much being a part of the long term viability of this "FORUM." To merely relegate any and all talk about Discord as being "off topic" is to treat that important and RELATED topic too flippantly. It basically says: "Even though this is a POLL, we shall tighly restrain all talk in the comments thereunder by forcing participants to talk ONLY about the POLL and they shall not talk about anything else pertaining to the long term viability of this forum or decisions made by the board, including the decision to advertise Discord on the top page of this forum."

While it may upset some to hear this question I shall nevertheless ask it...

How is that NOT being too strict?

It's not like I was talking about having waffles for breakfast, which would TRULY be off-topic. All topics that benefit the Board and the long term viability of this forum SHOULD BE valid here. I will continue to fight for people to have that level of FREEDOM, and yes, FREEDOM is indeed one of the reasons this forum was created in the first place. Not "waffles for breakfast" ridiculousness, but the freedom to talk about very closely topics which are needed at this time in this discussion.

>> Androda said:

Consider a situation where people are voted in and decide they want to take the forum a totally different direction than the membership wants. What happens then? Who holds the Board accountable? Who can say no and actually stop them? What happens then could be the death of the forum. We need protections against this sort of thing. Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't have become one of the first people on the Founders team had I not been approached by Mr. Fahrenheit, who was the lone man who came up with the idea of a new forum (for the good of the community) and who assembled the first people. Those people (myself included) then proposed other people to come on board, and we eventually went on to have 12 or so, but some decided not to participate, so the numbers dropped a bit. This was summer 2021, when we started off using email (my preferred method of contact, so we all have permanent records which cannot be deleted), then later switched to Discord (which eventually was deleted), and then ultimately we elected a Board based on rules proposed by Mr. Fahrenheit and voted in by the Founders, agreed to by all those elected to the Board.

So the fact THE original one-man Founder (Mr. Fahrenheit) who assembled (directly and indirectly) all other Founders had a particular vision that was largely upheld by the original Founders team establishes an original framework with which we can compare to what we have today. And if there is any deviation from that original vision, it should be noted. I'm not saying such deviation is right or wrong. But obviously, Mr. Fahrenheit has the right to chime in and say how he feels about it, as that adds important perspective. Some pop shots were fired his way, so I stand in defense of his right to speak. I also defend Mr. Fahrenheit because I am well aware of the animosity some have toward him, even though those same people staunchly defended him when he led the original founding team in the summer of 2021. The root of animosity is emotion, and that needs to be switched off.

But in answer to Android's excellent question about what happens "where people are voted in and decide they want to take the forum in a totally different direction" well, technically speaking, it is the right of the board within the framework established to take the forum in a totally different direction if they so choose, AND AT THE SAME TIME, those who vote in the board (forum members) hold the board accountable. If you can vote in a board member, YOU CAN VOTE THEM OUT!

If we are to have a board elected by votes, then we must have a system in place that can RECALL board members if that is what the forum membership wants. No, I am not saying we need to recall anybody now. I am merely answering the question put forth by Android which asks: "Who can stop them?" Android asked it. It's a good question that has an answer. The answer is and must be "the people who vote them into office." And the term of that office is what the poll is about, and largely what this entire comment section is about.

I would also like to go back to what I said about Discord, which some who DISAGREE with my comments want to label "off topic."

If we truly CARE about the board, and good management, should we be so harsh and strict about what SOME consider to be an "off topic" discussion that really isn't? Speaking of strict...

>> eric said:

I'll also add there is no way I could take doing this as seriously as I take my day job, family, or IRL responsibilities. This _is_ a (fun) hobby. Turning it into a job ruins the fun and joy of it. Of course board members should attend meetings and take on responsibilities to better the forum in their capacities and if they can't step aside, but I whole heartily disagree with making it a job. It's easy enough to burn out with your real job and IRL responsibilities. Just my 2c - also It's great we can even have these discussion vs just taking whatever you get. Click to expand...

That has to do with "strictness." So we see some will be strict in one area but not in another. The above quote is also an opinion which on some level suggests that the board should take the job less seriously "because it is a hobby." It seems to say, "to get too serious on the board ruins the fun and joy of it."

As I said in my earlier posts, I disagree with those who treat nearly every matter flippantly by quipping "it's just a hobby!" because that suggests we can just drop it all at any time. It suggest people can simply NOT APPEAR for board meetings if they aren't having enough fun, etc. But it is due to some board members not having attended meetings in the first place that this POLL exists.

If you are just a member of this forum not elected to do anything, you can indeed drop whatever you are doing any time. You aren't elected. You have zero responsibility. But when you are elected to anything, the situation changes. That doesn't mean you can't have fun. But the type of fun changes in light of one's responsibility. And let's face it, nobody on the board was elected against their will. Everybody elected threw their name into the pot.

Why am I, JDW, not on the current board? Because I didn't throw my name into the pot in the last elected, that's why.

Friends, what is the entire point of this POLL? Let's talk about that.

Was the poll created because things are going well on the board?

No. Quite obviously not. And that doesn't mean anything bad about board members necessarily. It does say that things are not going well, as per the original comments by Kai and others. But it also shows the board is taking action by getting everyone involved, which is a good thing. (Although I still think we need to grab more people off Discord so they actually see this thread and chime in.)

Indeed, to extend the length of terms via the POLL is to basically say: "the board, at times, is somewhat disfunctional now, and this poll is our means of addressing the core problem centering on participation and the need for board members to be more responsible and participate by understanding their job better." In other words, board members don't just get elected for the badge of honor and then party till the sun goes down.

While it is great that "we can even have these discussions vs just taking whatever the board dishes out to us" the fact is the board is accountable to its voter base, which is how it was originally designed. And yes, Mr. Fahrenheit was very much a part of the original design and the original founders largely voted in the framework that was largely established by him.

No doubt, some will chime in saying my words are yet again off topic and therefore should be relegated to another forum like FEEDBACK where they know it would not gain traction. But I vehemently disagree with that. That talk is DEFLECTION and not constructive. Let us be open and friendly here, not harsh and restrictive.

And that brings up the last topic....

Most people are too emotional.

Even during the founding days, I disagree vehemently with some of the Founders. But here's the crux.. It's NOT all fun and games. There are times when we need to get serious and even disagree. But as mature adults, we need to do that by way of the one great trick taught to us by Lt. Commander Data -- we must switch off our emotion chip! That way, we can STRONGLY DISAGREE, yet go home FRIENDS at night. We MUST DISAGREE, yet not get pissed off, or say within our hearts, "I hate that guy!" Sometimes we'll need to AGREE TO DISAGREE, and that too is okay. But the backbiting and hidden animosity toward each other must stop here and now.

This is why the board isn't just one or two people. There are various jobs and various perspectives. Not everyone will agree with me, and that's ok. Not everyone will agree with Mr. Fahrenheit, and that's okay. But the Board HAS TO LISTEN to all forum member voices because it was created that way by design. And part of LISTENING means we are appreciative of all feedback, even if that feedback happens in this particular comments section and not in the magical "FEEDBACK" section of this forum.

So again, going back to what Androda asked, the answer really is simple. The Board can indeed be stopped if it takes a different direction. Too many are worried about that. It can be stopped! "NO PERPETUAL KINGS" means we have established a framework to stop rogue rulers. It's that way by design. Limiting terms to 1 year was an attempt to better control that power versus something like 2 years or 3 years or 5 years. But it is up to the voter base and the current board to determine if longer terms, staggered or not, are really necessary and how they are to be implemented. It requires consensus by the voter base. That is one big reason why this POLL is important, because it asks Forum members to actively participate in this decision which impacts governance.

Thanks to everyone who have participated to date. Let the discussion continue freely and unrestrained. Please invite people you know who are fellow forum members if you feel their voice could help. We really do need more voices than we have right now (and no, I'm not taking a pot shot at anyone by saying that). Let all constructive opinions flow freely.

I don't know about you guys but I'm having tacos tonight ;D

Joking aside, I agree with so much of what was expressed and I am keenly aware of the massive contribution of Mr.Fahrenheit. In the same way I applaud the board for shouldering TD's formative growth and evolution (which is not particularly enjoyable, fun or easy), I applaud Mr.Fahrenheit for his foundational contributions to TD.

Feedback is a tough one because order for the sake of organization is important as a resource but I believe as JDW does that conversations of the board & functionality, especially from the bottom up should never be stifled, controlled or corralled. Organic, honest feedback and conversation is rare. Organizing what is said can be done after the fact if need be but maintaining open and honest dialog is very important functionally and culturally IMO.

Androda does bring up a good point and the solution (a recall vote) can be easily enough put in place if it has not already although I honestly can't see anyone on the board going there as everyone from what I can see is well respected by the community.

>> JDW said:

Naturally, took note of the pop-shot my way. (No, I am not upset,.) Click to expand...

>> JDW said:

It should be taken less seriously, this is a hobby of retro computers - we should be having fun - even in board capacities. Sure there is some times we have to buckle down and make some decisions or implement a feature. This again we can disagree on, which is fine.

>> Certificate of Excellence said:

Feedback is a tough one because order for the sake of organization is important as a resource but I believe as JDW does that conversations of the board & functionality, especially from the bottom up should never be stifled, controlled or corralled. Organic, honest feedback and conversation is rare. Organizing what is said can be done after the fact if need be but maintaining open and honest dialog is very important functionally and culturally IMO. Click to expand...

It wasn't meant to corral it was meant to say "feedback is great, but actions need to be taken" - I've taken a ton of notes from these threads but saying "Setup a store" or "do XYZ" is great - it's an idea - it's feedback - but what it isn't is action. Actions need people dedicated to do it and buy in. We're past the foundation phase and now in the steady state run phase, where we need to choose what feedback to implement and what resources we have to do it. And I guess that's ultimately what we do.

>> JDW said:

YOU CAN VOTE THEM OUT! Click to expand...

What if a future board just chooses not to have an election? What if they just choose to ignore the results? At the end of the day no written process can make anyone do anything, which I believe was @Androda's point. I don't believe anyone on the board past or present would do this, I'm just saying that as good intentioned as we are there is always challenges like this that could arise when "changing powers".

---

So with all this feedback and "off topic not really off topic" discussion - did it change or persuade your vote in this poll?

---

Lastly just wanted to mention as someone asked - we cross post all board communications (including this poll) to Discord https://discord.com/channels/904011135664152627/1054164310982656000/1191910799380324512 (posted on Jan 2nd, 2024)

>> eric said:

Yes but a good natured one as we are friends and I know you wouldn't be upset. As you mention in this post we can disagree and that's OK. No one is going to stop anyone from posting. I understand your points. We can likely drop the whole off topic thing now It should be taken less seriously, this is a hobby of retro computers - we should be having fun - even in board capacities. Sure there is some times we have to buckle down and make some decisions or implement a feature. This again we can disagree on, which is fine. It wasn't meant to corral it was meant to say "feedback is great, but actions need to be taken" - I've taken a ton of notes from these threads but saying "Setup a store" or "do XYZ" is great - it's an idea - it's feedback - but what it isn't is action. Actions need people dedicated to do it and buy in. We're past the foundation phase and now in the steady state run phase, where we need to choose what feedback to implement and what resources we have to do it. And I guess that's ultimately what we do. What if a future board just chooses not to have an election? What if they just choose to ignore the results? At the end of the day no written process can make anyone do anything, which I believe was @Androda 's point. I don't believe anyone on the board past or present would do this, I'm just saying that as good intentioned as we are there is always challenges like this that could arise when "changing powers". --- So with all this feedback and "off topic not really off topic" discussion - did it change or persuade your vote in this poll? --- Lastly just wanted to mention as someone asked - we cross post all board communications (including this poll) to Discord https://discord.com/channels/904011135664152627/1054164310982656000/1191910799380324512 (posted on Jan 2nd, 2024) Click to expand...

That makes great sense as well but it is IMO a boards job to act on behalf of the community fundamentally & feedback is part of that. How that feedback is given is not of significant consequence to a boards ability to respond. I do understand well what a heavy lift opening a retail component can be. There is so much more to it than many folks realize I think. Especially where the profit component is secondary and where service to the community is front and center - this is no easy task to make it work (I mean where did the start up capital come from??) so my hats off to you all for the action that YOU, the board have taken there. I am curious about how liability was handled and how personal assets were shielded etc but that is Completely off topic lol so please ignore that haha. Still as an example, topics like that could become increasingly commonplace as TD itself becomes more and more complex in service to our community and financial risk or liability becomes a thing. Conversely, with a seasoned board who have been around the block and been there done that, identifying and acting on future opportunities that present themselves will become easier & much more efficient. So again, thank you board for taking those formative steps into understanding building and launching a retail component to help the community to build the TD brand. This also shows how lengthened multi-hat board terms create that wheelhouse and experience to be more responsive to future opportunity.

I feel overall that for TD to not "run out of steam" so to speak, it has to offer more than just a forum. Because at the end of the day, leadership and ideology differences aside, it's just another retro tech forum in a space that already has several (VCFed, Vogons, 68kMLA, and so on). I can see why Fahrenheit's vision was as it was - mainly the idea of wanting to be more than that. I feel like at a certain point it will need to be. TD got a lot of initial steam from the few dissatisfied with the MLA forum crash in 2021, and then more from YouTube promotion and other sources. The issue that will eventually crop up (and I feel already is to an extent) is that starting, and maintaining a large community is tough. Getting people to join a new place and stay is tough. And it gets even tougher when you're too similar to the competition out there. Think. Why does someone choose to join TinkerDifferent for PC discussion rather than joining VCF which is far more active? Why does someone join TinkerDifferent for Mac discussion rather than joining 68kMLA which is far more active? Generally, unless the larger platform has MAJOR issues, most people will go to the larger platform, as a larger platform typically equals more discussion, more people here to help, and so on. I already feel like TD has "beat the odds" so to speak and made it to a point where there IS a community here, but if it continues as "just a forum", it's gonna be death by a thousand cuts eventually from the larger forces that have been around longer.

I personally don't have a huge vested interest in any one forum. I care about community a lot more. I'm a member on 68kMLA, on VCF, on Vogons, on System7Today, on Macintosh Garden. I go where the people go because I'm interested in talking about my hobbies with like-minded people. If the platform functions well, I'll use it. If TD turns into the best platform to be for this stuff, I'll be most active here. Right now, by my own post count, this is the forum I've been the 3rd most active in, with number 2 being VCF, and number 1 being 68kMLA. Regardless of that all, I'm not in the "68kMLA good, TinkerDifferent bad" camp, nor will you ever see me join the "TinkerDifferent good, 68kmla bad" camp that some people here are in (why treat it like "he who shall not be named??). Just not my thing. I respect and contribute in both platforms because I enjoy helping and discussing with people. I want to see TinkerDifferent succeed because I see potential in it, just like I want any other forum I'm on to do well because I see further potential in them too. Call it playing both sides, whatever you'd like, but I honestly just want good resources for the community. Same reason I put so much work into my documentation website.

With that being said, I do think the best way forward for TD is to become more of a platform than just a forum. It would give people more of a reason to pick TD as the place to join instead of going to a different place. Most of my posts here are helping other people out, or having discussion here. When I myself need help with an issue, whether it be for a PC or Mac, I still find I get better served in my top 2. That MAKES SENSE though. 20 years of growth for both those communities I mentioned above vs. under 3 is inevitably going to yield that. TD is doing REALLY WELL for such a new forum in such an already crowded space. That's why I think you should take advantage of the opportunity here to grow out further. Getting a community started is the hardest part, and you've done that. Don't let it go to waste.
It doesn't have to exactly fit Fahrenheit's image, but I think the general idea of an all-in-one platform is a good idea. And on that note - I personally feel like the removal of the vendor section was a step in the opposite direction, and also a contradiction of the "no data loss" ideology. Also wasn't a big fan of how it was carried out with no community vote or discussion (as far as I can tell), just a "hey this is going away" message. but if the rest of the community is against me on that one then I get it. And for the record, I do believe it was done with good intentions. I just personally disagree with how that was carried out.

^There was also the group of people who left 68kMLA back in early-mid 2014, after the administrators there were doing decisions that the group didn't like. One of those members formed the old ThinkClassic forum, which I moved over to, since I found it to have less drama and a more informal scene, which I see here. That forum also ran different software, which made it possible to do this:

[Image: IIci_ThinkClassic.JPG]

-J

>> Volvo242GT said:

There was also the group of people who left 68kMLA back in early-mid 2014, after the administrators there were doing decisions that the group didn't like. Click to expand...

Weird. Looks like there was a data loss incident back then that I didn't previously know about. There's a big several month gap in 2014. Seems any information on what happened is gone. It also appears that this data loss didn't happen right at where the gap ended, but sometime after, as posts from that time show in the wayback machine in 2015... now I'm curious. That's off-topic though.

>> Volvo242GT said:

One of those members formed the old ThinkClassic forum, Click to expand...

at the risk of being OT. is that forum dead?
i seem to get redirected to something weird when i try to visit it.

>> 3lectr1c said:

And on that note - I personally feel like the removal of the vendor section was a step in the opposite direction, and also a contradiction of the "no data loss" ideology. Also wasn't a big fan of how it was carried out with no community vote or discussion (as far as I can tell), just a "hey this is going away" message. but if the rest of the community is against me on that one then I get it. And for the record, I do believe it was done with good intentions. I just personally disagree with how that was carried out. Click to expand...

I agree with much of this sentiment. It is a very realistic view of where TD truly is and in order to grow and thrive, where else TD can plant their flag out of the shadow of the larger, tenured sites.

My thoughts on the removal of the vendor sites have changed, aligning more with yours. Initially I thought it to be a good move as one could argue that TD was a platform of promotion of those services & YT personalities at the time. The relationships were blurred. This made for very bad optics when transparency and community first ideals were at play. Since this however, I have moved to your camp. Getting to know these folks and their services have shown me that not only was the move in staunch contrast to the community first approach via removing easy access and visibility to the very services that support the community but also damaged those vendors ability to grow their own businesses which in turn risked failure of those services and disappearance of that service or product or whatever from the greater community. In order to best serve the community, I believe strong support for and integration into TD is important thus should be looked at; potentially reinstated.

Speaking of spaces to grow into, what if TD was unique in its ability to attract retro computing vendors, communicate services, pricing etc and in doing so grow into a functional hub of sorts to support community needs. I mean that is what we generally had until that was removed - just thinking out loud :D .

Worth noting that when I saw the notice I went and manually saved every page in the section to the wayback machine, so no content has been lost if you look there thankfully. Not everything was saved prior to me doing that though.

>> 3lectr1c said:

<snip> I personally feel like the removal of the vendor section was a step in the opposite direction, and also a contradiction of the "no data loss" ideology. Also wasn't a big fan of how it was carried out with no community vote or discussion (as far as I can tell), just a "hey this is going away" message. but if the rest of the community is against me on that one then I get it. And for the record, I do believe it was done with good intentions. I just personally disagree with how that was carried out. </snip> Click to expand...

On this particular point - the vendors section had been devoid of any activity. Almost no posts in there, and the ones that existed generally had no updates for several months.

I'm not inclined to agree that there was any damage done to vendors, as the vendors were mostly absent, barring @Androda, and he was the one that recommended removal due to non use.

When it was removed, we did make it clear that posts weren't being deleted either, merely moved, so that point doesn't stand either. Plenty of time was given in advance as to the removal for any vendors to speak up and object - none did.

Also, I think we're veering off topic now, the original point is to whether the community supports a longer term for operation or not.

For those wishing to make recommendations, that's what the feedback section is for.